Transcript from 'Meet the Press'

Part 2



MR. BROKAW: We are back with President-elect Obama. We want to talk about taxes; that was a central piece of your campaign. Here is what you had to say:

(OBAMA TAPE): "We need to roll back the Bush-McCain tax cuts and invest in things like healthcare that are really important, instead of giving tax breaks to wealthy who don't need them and weren't even asking for them. We should be putting a middle class tax cut into the pockets of working families."

MR. BROKAW: Have the economic conditions changed what you hope to do about taxes? When Bill Daly, a friend and economic advisor, was on this broadcast two weeks ago and I raised the question about whether you would raise taxes on those earning $250,000 or more a year, he gave a very strong indication that you would probably not do that. You would let the Bush tax cuts play out until 2011; is that your plan?

PRESIDENT-ELECT OBAMA: Well, understand what my original tax plan was. It was a net tax cut. Ninety-five percent of working families would get tax relief to help pay for that. People like you and me, Tom, who make more than a quarter million dollars a year would play--pay slightly more. We would essentially go back to the tax rates that existed back in the 1990s. My economic team right now is examining do we repeal that through legislation? Do we let it lapse so that, when the Bush tax cuts expire, they're not renewed when it comes to wealthiest Americans? We don't yet know what the best approach is going to be, but the overall thrust is going to be that 95 percent of working families are going to get a tax cut, and the wealthiest Americans who disproportionately benefited not only from tax cuts from the Bush Administration but also disproportionately benefited when it comes to corporate profits and where the gains and productivity were going. They are going to give up a little bit more. And it turns out--

MR. BROKAW: Right away, or in 2011?

PRESIDENT-ELECT OBAMA: Well, as I said, my economic team is taking a look at this right now. But I think the important principle, because sometimes when we start talking about taxes, and I say I want a more balanced Tax Code, people think, "Well, you know, that's class warfare." No. It turns out that our economy grows best when the benefits of the economy are most widely spread, and that has been true historically. And, you know, the real aberration has been over the last ten, fifteen years in which you've seen a huge shift in terms of resources to the wealthiest, and the vast majority of Americans taking home less and less. Their incomes, their wages have flatlined at a time that costs of everything have gone up, and we have actually become a more productive society. So, what we want to do is actually go back to what has been the traditional pattern. We have a broad-based middle class, economic growth from the bottom-up. That, I think, will be the recipe for everybody doing better over the long term.

MR. BROKAW: Your Vice President, Joe Biden, said during the course of this campaign, "It would be patriotic for the wealthy to pay more in taxes." In this economy, does he still believe that?

PRESIDENT-ELECT OBAMA: Well, I think what Joe meant is exactly what I described, which is that if our entire economic policy is premised on the notion that greed is good and "What's in it for me?", it turns out that that's not good for anybody: It's not good for the wealthy, it's not good for the poor, and it's not good for the vast majority in the middle. If we've learned anything from this current financial crisis--think about how this evolved: You had a situation in which you started seeing home foreclosures rise; you had a middle across that was vulnerable and couldn't make payments. Suddenly, all the borrowing that had been--and all the speculation that had been premised on those folks doing okay, that starts evaporating. The next thing you know you've got Lehman Brothers going under. People used to think that, well, there was no connection between those two things. It turns out that when we all do well, then the economy as a whole is going to benefit.

MR. BROKAW: I want to move now to international affairs, the war on terror, obviously. We have all been stunned by what happened in India, in Mumbai, that is still playing out in that part of the world. You have said that the United States reserves the right to go after terrorists in Pakistan, if you have targets of opportunity. Does India now also have that right of hot pursuit?

PRESIDENT-ELECT OBAMA: Well, I'm not going to comment on that. What I'm going to restate is a basic principle: Number one, if a country is attacked, it has the right to defend itself. I think that is universally acknowledged. The second thing is that we need a strategic partnership with all the parties in the region--Pakistan and India and the Afghan Government--to stamp out the kind of militant, violent, terrorist extremists that have set up base camps and that are operating in ways that threaten the security of everybody in the international community. And as I said before, we can't continue to look at Afghanistan in isolation. We have to see it as part of a regional problem that includes Pakistan, includes India, includes Kashmir, includes Iran. And part of the kind of foreign policy I want to shape is one in which we have tough, directed policy combined with more effective military operations, focused on what is the number one threat against U.S. interests and U.S. lives, and that's Al Qaeda and their various affiliates, and we are going to go after them fiercely in the years to come.

MR. BROKAW: President Zardari of Pakistan has said that he expects you to re-examine the American policy of using unmanned missiles for attacks on terrorist camps in Pakistan, and there have been civilian casualties in those attacks, as well. Are you re-examining that policy?

PRESIDENT-ELECT OBAMA: Well, what I want to do is to create the kind of effective strategic partnership with Pakistan that allows us in concert to assure that terrorists are not setting up safe-havens in some of these border regions between Pakistan and Afghanistan. Thus far, President Zardari has sent the right signals. He's indicated that he recognizes this is not just a threat to the United States but is a threat to Pakistan, as well.

There was a bombing in Pakistan just yesterday that killed scores of people. And so you're seeing greater and greater terrorist activity inside Pakistan. I think this democratically elected government understands that threat, and I hope that in the coming months that we are going to be able to establish the kind of close, effective working relationship that makes both countries safer.

MR. BROKAW: That part of the world is such a hot zone. Is it going to be necessary for you to appoint some kind of a special envoy to worry only about South Asia, with presidential authority?

PRESIDENT-ELECT OBAMA: Well, my first job is to make sure that my core national security team, Secretary of State designee Hillary Clinton; Jim Jones, who will be my National Security Advisor; Bob Gates; Susan Rice, my UN Representative, that--my intelligence folks, when they get appointed, that we come up with a comprehensive strategy. I have enormous confidence in Senator Clinton's ability to rebuild alliances and to send a strong signal that we are going to do business differently and place an emphasis on diplomacy.

MR. BROKAW: Let's talk for a moment about Iraq. It was a principal--it was one of the principles in the organization of your campaign at the beginning. A lot of people voted for you because they thought you would bring the war in Iraq to an end very swiftly. Here is what you had to say on July 3rd of this year about what you would do when you took office:

(OBAMA TAPE)"I intend to end this war. My first day in office, I will bring the Joint Chiefs of Staff in, and I will give them a new mission, and that is to end this war responsibly and deliberately but decisively."

MR. BROKAW: When does the drawdown of American troops begin, and when does it end in Iraq?

PRESIDENT-ELECT OBAMA: Well, one of my first acts as President, once I'm sworn in, will be to bring in the Joint Chiefs of Staff, to bring in my national security team, and design a plan for a responsible drawdown. You are seeing a convergence. When I began this campaign, there was a lot of controversy about the idea of starting to draw down troops. Now you have seen this administration sign an agreement with the Iraqi Government both creating a time frame for removing U.S. troops. And so what I want to do is tell our Joint Chiefs let's do it as quickly as we can do to maintain stability in Iraq, maintain the safety of U.S. troops, to provide a mechanism so that Iraq can start taking more responsibility as a sovereign responsibility for its own safety and security, ensuring that you don't see any resurgence of terrorism in Iraq that could threaten our interests. But recognizing that the central front on terror, as Bob Gates said, started in Afghanistan in the border regions between Afghanistan and Pakistan, that's where it will end, and that has to be our priority.

MR. BROKAW: Jim Jones, who is your new National Security Advisor, the man you want to have in that job, was the Marine Commandant when we first went into Afghanistan. I had a conversation with him at that time, and he said to me, "I know how we are going to get into Afghanistan. I don't know how we are going to get out of Afghanistan." What is he telling you today about how we are going to get out of Afghanistan?

PRESIDENT-ELECT OBAMA: Well, I think we are starting to see a consensus, that we have to have more effective military action, and that means additional troops, but it also means more effective coordination with our NATO allies. It means that we have to have much more effective diplomacy in the region. We can't solve Afghanistan without solving Pakistan, and working more effectively with that country. And we are going to have to make sure that India and Pakistan are normalizing their relationship if we are going to be effective in some of these other areas. And we've got to really ramp up our development approach to Afghanistan. I mean, part of the problem that we've had is the average Afghan farmer hasn't seen any improvement in his life. We haven't seen the kinds of infrastructure improvements. We haven't seen the security improvements. We haven't seen the reduction in narco-trafficking. We haven't seen a reliance on rule of law in Afghanistan that would make people feel confident that the central government can, in fact, deliver on its promises. And if we combine effective development, more effective military work as well as more effective diplomacy, then I think that we can stabilize the situation. Our number one goal has to be to make sure that it cannot be used as a base to launch attacks against the United States, and we have got to get bin Laden, and we have got to get Al Qaeda.

MR. BROKAW: Here is something else that Afghan farmer has never seen, nor have any of his ancestors ever seen this: Foreign powers coming into Afghanistan and being effective and staying very long.

PRESIDENT-ELECT OBAMA: Well, I think that we do have to be mindful of the history of Afghanistan. It is tough territory, and there is a fierce independence in Afghanistan. And if the perception is that we are there simply to impose ourselves in a long-term occupation, that's not going to work in Afghanistan. By the way, that's not going to work in Iraq, either. There are very few countries that welcome long-term occupations by foreign powers, but Afghanistan has shown that they are fiercely resistant to that. We are going to have to convince the Afghan people that we are not interested in dictating what happens in Afghanistan. What we are interested in is making sure that Afghanistan cannot be used as a base for launching terrorist attacks. And as long as Al Qaeda, and the Taliban working in concert with Al Qaeda, threaten directly the United States and are engaged in mayhem, then we've got to take action, and that very limited goal of making sure that that doesn't happen, I think, can serve as the basis for effective cooperation with the Afghan people.

MR. BROKAW: Before we leave that part of the world, on Iraq, there is a new phrase that has come into play called "residual force," how many troops will stay behind in an Obama administration. The speculation is 35 to 50,000. Is that a fair number?

PRESIDENT-ELECT OBAMA: Well, I'm not going to speculate on the numbers. What I said is that we are going to maintain a large enough force in the region to assure that our civilian troops, our civilian personnel and our Embassies are protected; to make sure that we can ferret out any remaining terrorist activity in the region in cooperation with the Iraqi Government; that we are providing training and logistical support, maintaining the integrity of Iraq as necessary. And one of the things that I will be doing is evaluating what kind of numbers are required to meet those very limited goals.

MR. BROKAW: Two other areas that could be problematic in your administration, and I want to deal with them fairly swiftly here if I can. What are the circumstances under which you would open a dialogue with Iran?

PRESIDENT-ELECT OBAMA: Well, I said before, we need to ratchet up tough but direct diplomacy with Iran, making very clear to them that their development of nuclear weapons would be unacceptable; that their funding of terrorist organizations such as Hamas and Hezbollah, their threats against Israel are contrary to everything that we believe and what the international community should accept; and present a set of carrots and sticks in changing their calculus about how they want to operate. In terms of carrots, I think that we can provide economic incentives that would be helpful to a country that, despite being a net oil producer, is under enormous strain, huge inflation, a lot of unemployment problems there. They could benefit from a more open economy and being part of the international economic system. But we also have to focus on the sticks, and one of the main things that diplomacy can accomplish is to help knit together the kind of coalition with China and India and Russia and other countries that now do business with Iran to agree that, in order for us to change Iran's behavior, we may have to heighten up those sanctions, but we are willing to talk to them directly and give them a clear choice, and ultimately let them make a determination in terms of whether they want to do this the hard way or the easy way.

MR. BROKAW: And briefly, how soon after you take office do you want to meet with the leaders of Russia, and which ones do you meet with? Your counterpart is Medvedev, but, of course, the power behind the throne is Vladimir Putin.

PRESIDENT-ELECT OBAMA: Well, yeah, this is something that we are going to make a determination on. I think that it's going to be important for us to reset U.S.-Russian relations. Russia is a country that has made great progress economically over the last several years. Obviously, high oil prices have helped them. They're increasingly assertive. And when it comes to Georgia and their threats against their neighboring countries, I think they have been acting in a way that is contrary to international norms.

We want to cooperate with them where we can, and there are a whole host of areas particularly around nonproliferation of weapons and terrorism where we can cooperate, but we also have to send a clear message that they have to act in ways that are not bullying their neighbors.

MR. BROKAW: You still have some appointments to make coming up, and there is also a good deal of consideration here in Illinois about who will replace you in the Senate. But in New York City this weekend, the big buzz is Caroline Kennedy in the United States Senate perhaps as the appointment to fill the seat that Hillary Clinton is expected to vacate if she gets confirmed as Secretary of State. Is that a good idea?

PRESIDENT-ELECT OBAMA: Well, let me tell you this: Caroline Kennedy has become one of my dearest friends and is just a wonderful American, a wonderful person, but the last thing I want to do is get involved in New York politics. I've got enough trouble in terms of Illinois politics. But just in terms of our appointments, I am very proud of the speed with which we have started to put together our core economic team, our national security team, but also the excellence of the candidates, and I think that it's an indication of part of the change I was talking about during the campaign: An emphasis on confidence, an emphasis on people who are not ideological--and pragmatic and just want to do business. Tomorrow, you mentioned earlier, is when we commemorate Pearl Harbor, and so I'm going to be making announcement tomorrow about the head of our Veterans Administration, General Eric Shinseki, who was a commander and has fought in Vietnam, Bosnia, is somebody who has achieved the highest level of military service. He has agreed that he is willing to be part of this administration because both he and I share a reverence for those who serve. I grew up in Hawaii, as he did. My grandfather is in the Punch Bowl National Cemetery. When I reflect on the sacrifices that have been made by our veterans and, I think, about how so many veterans around the country are struggling even more than those who have not served--higher unemployment rates, high homeless rates, higher substance-abuse rates, medical care that is inadequate--it breaks my heart, and I think that General Shinseki is exactly the right person who is going to be able to make sure that we honor our troops when they come home.

MR. BROKAW: He's the man who lost his job in the Bush Administration because he says we will need more troops in Iraq than Secretary of Defense Don Rumsfeld thought that we would need.

PRESIDENT-ELECT OBAMA: He was right.

MR. BROKAW: And General Shinseki was right. Let me ask you, as we conclude this program this morning, about whether you and Michelle have had any discussions about the impact that you are going to have on this country and other ways besides international and domestic policies. You are going to have a huge impact culturally in terms of the tone of the country. Who are the kinds of artists that you would like to bring into the White House?

PRESIDENT-ELECT OBAMA: Well, you know, we have thought about this because part of what we want to do is to open up the White House and remind people this is--this is the people's house. There is an incredible bully pulpit to be used when it comes to, for example, education: Yes, we're going to have an education policy; yes, we're going to be putting more money into school construction. But ultimately we want to talk about parents reading to their kids. We want to invite kids from local schools into the White House. When it comes to science, elevating science once again, and having lectures in the White House where people are talking about traveling to the stars or breaking down atoms, inspiring our youth to get a sense of what discovery is all about. Thinking about the diversity of our culture and inviting jazz musicians and classical musicians and poetry readings in the White House so that once again we appreciate this incredible tapestry that's America. That, I think, is going to be incredibly important particularly because we are going through hard times, and historically what has always brought us through hard times is that national character, that sense of optimism, that willingness to look forward, that sense that better days are ahead, I think that our art and our culture, our science--you know, that's the essence of what makes America special, and we want to project that as much as possible in the White House.

MR. BROKAW: Finally, Mr. President-elect, the White House is a no-smoking zone, and when you were asked about this recently by Barbara Walters--I read it very carefully--you ducked. Have you stopped smoking?

PRESIDENT-ELECT OBAMA: You know, I have, but what I said was that there were times where I have fallen off the wagon.

MR. BROKAW: Wait a minute. That means you haven't stopped.

PRESIDENT-ELECT OBAMA: Fair enough. What I would say is that I have done a

terrific job under the circumstances of making myself much healthier, and I think that you will not see any violations of these rules in the White House.

MR. BROKAW: Mr. President-elect, thank you very much for being us with us today.

PRESIDENT-ELECT OBAMA: Thank you. I really enjoyed it.

MR. BROKAW: And I know that I speak not just for Meet The Press but for all of America when I say we wish you only the very best.

PRESIDENT-ELECT OBAMA: Well, Tom, thank you, and congratulations on doing such a great job on this show.

MR. BROKAW: Well, those were circumstances none of us wanted to have, but Tim remains with us in a lot of ways, as you know.

PRESIDENT-ELECT OBAMA: He does.

MR. BROKAW: Thanks for being with us.